Without question the SunCat is the boat for you. And I've had four in the cockpit without issue (maybe one in the companionway or sitting on the high side cabin top if everybody's big, but manageable). The fact that you don't have jib sheets to manage makes the cockpit that much bigger. You're 64... I was 64 6 years ago. Those 6 years go quick, especially when you're sailing an having fun!. Rigging the boat doesn't get easier and the SunCat is a breeze. I've owned several (as well as many other boats) and the gaff rigging is not a hinderance. Just tweak the gaff halyard slightly to get the right shape for your point of sail and don't close haul the boom too much. The same sailor will probably be able to point a few degrees higher when beating with a sloop, but are you racing??? If you are, no-one will touch you on the broad reach and downwind leg. The short mast positioned well forward offers tremendous advantages above, below, rigging and storing, and the floppy stays mean you're not constantly trying to tune your rig. After having a gallows.... how does anyone live without one? And step onto any of those boats from the dock and then step on the SunCat... it doesn't buck you off, feels like a much bigger boat. Go SunCat for sure! Clark Mills knew what he was doing.
Agree with all you say John, except the “4 in the cockpit”
Fine at a dock, but we both know it doesn’t work underway unless small folks.
I’ve got 12+ years and multiple destinations beyond home on mine. Love them! Best senior boat going beyond a doubt! But if sailing with 4 is important to him, we’ll.,,
ANY of them will provide big adventures in small boats. No. 1 is see what’s available in your area. No. 2 take a boaty friend with you to help check it over. Focus on the pricey bits like sails, rigging, engine, trailer. Then check for the cost of other defects you can’t fix yourself. Everyone has opinions about boats. Important thing is to find a good one and spend time on the water with it.
I think this is great advice. Check Craigslist, FB marketplace, sailing Texas, etc and see what’s available. A mast tabernacle is mandatory. There are lots of easy raising and lowering solutions if you have a tabernacle. I’m a fan of smaller sails and prefer 2-3 small ones to one large one in a catboat. Don’t fix on a particular boat as you might find a Montgomery 17 or Sage 17 available (or a number of other good options not listed). Good luck!
I'm a bit older than you, and I'm fortunate that my daughter provides a mooring for my boat in a cove off Narragansett Bay. I built my boat when I was 68 and have learned some lessons in the 9 years I've had her.
The first lesson is that few things can help you keep active and happy better that a good boat and a beautiful place to sail her.
The second is that I'm not as limber as I used to be and I cannot crawl in and out of tight spaces like I once did, so a fairly open cabin is good.
The third is the weight and stability of a boat are important as you get older. The weight and inertia of a boat tend to go up as the cube of its length.. Light is good but tippy can be exhausting.
When I was young I sailed a bit on a friend's Catalina 22, which was a fine boat (liked my Alberg Typhoon better), but a Catalina 22 weighs almost twice as much as a Sun Cat. If I were choosing among your candidates, I'd go with the Sun Cat for its simple rig, comfortable cabin, and ease of handling.
So, I have given some thought about most of the boats listed and feel I can extrapolate to the others.
For a newer sailor for whom comfort is important along with being a boat that is confidence inspiring, I'd say that the Potter 19 is a good place to start.
The reasons for my recommendation are below. However, the important thing to ask is how these considerations apply to the letter writer's situation and to any possible boat. Only then can the letter writer find the boat best for them.
Reasons for why the P-19 could be a good fit:
* The P-19 has a lot of space for its size. With the hard-chine hull, the interior volume is quite large for its length. The cockpit is good-sized and you feel very protected within it away from the water. The relatively large freeboard is nice for this.
* The hard-chine hull is very stable and these boats can put up with heavy weather quite well because of this. It is not a performer by any stretch. I could often out-sail and out-point my friends in their P-19 when I was in my Sparrow 16. However, I never saw them have any issues when the weather got bad.
* For a new sailor, the large number of other P-19s means there are many sailors of P-19s online of whom he could ask advice. This can be invaluable to a new sailor.
* The traditional fore/aft rig allows for rigging the main for easy reefing and the jib with a reefing furler. This is very important when the wind gets up. As someone who sails in North Idaho, I can attest that the weather can be much more surprising here than on the Salish Sea. The ability to heave-to and easily put in a reef means that a situation that could be scary just becomes annoying.
* The boat is not so large that it will be hard to rig. Of the list it will not be the easiest to rig but it is all a compromise.
* The P-19 is not so big that it can be single-handed. This may or may not be the highest priority but I'm thinking that it could be important the letter writer.
Now, what I would say are reasons why I did not recommend the other boats on the list:
* Com-Pac Legacy: These boats, although easy to rig and known for being quite confidence inspiring,
are simply too small for more than two people. I found the cabin cramped compared to my Sparrow 16.
* Com-Pac Suncat: I've sailed the waters of North Idaho and the Salish Sea in my Sparrow 16 for almost 15 years. The ability to heave-to and put in a reef is an absolute necessity. Cat boats simply cannot do this very well.
* Catalina 22: There is a reason this is one of the most popular boats around. They are a good size, handle well, and trailerable. However, for a new sailor, it likely will be too big to set up and to sail single-handed.
* Capri-18: This is one with which I am not too familiar. However if there was a boat to consider along with the P-19, I think this would be it. My gut, for what it is worth, tells me this boat might be more of performance boat than the P-19 and therefore not as forgiving to a new sailor as the P-19 would be.
Seaward Fox: This is even less familiar to me and basically the same logic likely applies to it as the Capri-18.
I agree with John Hughes’ recommendation of the Suncat for these reasons: 1. You want to trailer the boat extensively and explore different waters. This means that overall weight, having the boat sit low on the trailer, and especially ease of raising the mast will be critical to your satisfaction. I think these considerations disqualify the Seward and the Catalina. The Suncat has an ingenious system called Mastendr. The mast appears easy for one person to lift and insert in the hinged receptacle (see the Compaq web site). I would disqualify the Seward, the Catalina and maybe the Potter on this basis alone 2. Trying to keep ahead of a constantly corroding center board or swing keel made of ferrous metal (especially cast iron) is a huge maintenance nightmare. The Suncat has a stainless steel centerboard. 3. It seems to be the perfect size for you. 4. It has a chain locker forward to stow your anchor rode off the foredeck. 5. One sail to manage - easy. 6. My only reservation is no foam flotation, so watch the weather and sail conservatively (see Henry Rodriquez’s piece about how his Mac sank with the flotation removed). I believe of all your other candidates, only the Potter has that, so that might make her a good compromise choice if you can’t find a Suncat. Good luck!
O'Day Mariner. Under 22, plenty of room inside and out, much better sailboat than most of your other choices. Same design as a Rhodes 19, but with a cabin and a self bailing cockpit on the newer ones. Good luck with whatever you get.
Nothing easier than a ComPac SunCat 17!! I have sailed in company with Dick Herman’s Muddy Duck for many years....the only thing easier was my ComPac Picnic Cat 14....SunCat checks ALL the boxes...indeed it won the SCA best small boat competition a few months back!! High quality, very “Shippy Looking”....the ideal Trailer sailor some would say!!!
My preference would be for a catboat from what you say about how you would use it. Then it is what you would like better: ease of mast raising (com-pac), or unstayed rig (seaward).
Actually sailing with 4 in the cockpit in any of these, other than perhaps the Catalina, unless two are kids, is ambitious. Both the Suncat and Potter 19 meet your other requirements. The Potter cockpit is a bit short, but deep, and the Suncat cockpit is longer overall, but quite shallow, with wide seats and a wide bridge deck for safety. I have owned and thoroughly enjoyed coastal cruising in both, but the Suncat, although much, much easier to launch and rig, required just a bit of practice by this sloop sailor to adjust to the nuances of catboat sail trim. The heavy cast-iron drop keel of my Potter was clumsy to handle, required regular maintenance and its trunk was definitely in the way below. Too much "furniture" below for a 19 foot boat, in my view. But, until fully overpowered, she was solid and upright, with her initially stable hull form and that keel! Claustrophobes (like me) found the quarterberths somewhat confining. The Suncat , with two excellent berths, only needed a couple more inches of sitting headroom for me to pronounce the cabin "perfect".
San Juan 21, all the characteristics of a dinghy in a larger boat. Easy to trailer, easy to step the mast and ready at the ramp. Whatever you choose, look for good keel/centerboard, good sails, and good trailer. You can buy a fine boat for a few grand, but then have to turn around and put a few more grand towards a trailer etc.
No easier boat to trailer, set up and take down than a suncat. I’ve trailered them all over… great boats. But, you lost it at 4 adults in the cockpit. You’d be getting water up the drains… Seriously, if that us your intention, the Catalina with it’s relatively huge cockpit would shine. If only a couple, the suncat is sweet!
Roy, There are a lot of good choices and perhaps some great choices depending on what is in your area. I am assuming that you are looking at a used boat. If that is correct make sure you invite an experienced sailor (preferably without prejudices toward any particular brand) and have him or her carefully look over your prospective purchase to determine what hardware, sails, or upholstery will need updating. If stored outside, check carefully around any loose hardware or previously unfilled holes for any sponginess in the outer decking as these are great pathways for rot. Check the sails carefully for cigarette burn holes, wear, loose stitching, and mouse nests. A friend of mine let some mice winter in his mainsail and it was not a pretty site.
If there is a San Juan 21 in your area, (mentioned by Jarrett elsewhere) especially the earlier step cabin model, check it out. This same friend has the second version with a smaller cockpit and larger cabin but it is difficult for me to step from the cockpit to the foredeck. The earlier version gives you an easier intermediate step. San Juans were exceptionally well made, very stable, and pretty darn quick.
I'm 77 and have sailed small and larger boats for nearly fifty years. Were this I, the choice would be for the ComPac Suncat in a heartbeat. They have not tried to cram too much into this small sailor, it is easy to rig, easy to handle and any and all of those points secure its place in my old sailor's heart.
Damn, I hate saying "old sailor's heart", what happened to the last fifty years???
Anytime you can spend time on the water it is a damn good day! All of these boats will provide an enjoyable experience. If there is something that doesn't work for your sailing style, on any given boat, there is very likely someone, that has an ingenious fix.
I have a Catalina Capri 18 and it’s a good boat. One consideration/compromise is the wing keel. It is simpler than a swing keel and frees up space in the cabin, but probably limits sailing performance somewhat and makes trailering/launching more difficult. I keep mine in a slip which works out very well. I wouldn’t want to rig and de-rig often by myself. The way the boat sits on the trailer makes some shallow launch ramps difficult or impossible to use (I’m on the Texas Gulf Coast), but I only had to go through that once. It can fit four adults in the cockpit quite well, as long as conditions are mild and a leisurely sail is acceptable.
For the case described, I’d personally look towards a Mariner 19 with centerboard or Compac SunCat/Eclipse/Legacy.
Good luck! I hope we end up hearing what you pick.
You really should consider a Macgregor 26C. (the sailing version of the boat) I can singlehandedly raise the mast, it sits so low in on the trailer that it can launch any where, at any tide, leaving owners of other trailer sailor shaking their heads, and looking for trailer extenders. (it weighs 1650 with the ballast released) and she sails so fast upwind that other trailer sailors simply fade away in the distance as happened to me last week. We basically had to take the jib down so the other 22 footers could catch up. 5 in the cockpit is very comfortable but the boat is easy to sail by yourself.
Without question the SunCat is the boat for you. And I've had four in the cockpit without issue (maybe one in the companionway or sitting on the high side cabin top if everybody's big, but manageable). The fact that you don't have jib sheets to manage makes the cockpit that much bigger. You're 64... I was 64 6 years ago. Those 6 years go quick, especially when you're sailing an having fun!. Rigging the boat doesn't get easier and the SunCat is a breeze. I've owned several (as well as many other boats) and the gaff rigging is not a hinderance. Just tweak the gaff halyard slightly to get the right shape for your point of sail and don't close haul the boom too much. The same sailor will probably be able to point a few degrees higher when beating with a sloop, but are you racing??? If you are, no-one will touch you on the broad reach and downwind leg. The short mast positioned well forward offers tremendous advantages above, below, rigging and storing, and the floppy stays mean you're not constantly trying to tune your rig. After having a gallows.... how does anyone live without one? And step onto any of those boats from the dock and then step on the SunCat... it doesn't buck you off, feels like a much bigger boat. Go SunCat for sure! Clark Mills knew what he was doing.
Agree with all you say John, except the “4 in the cockpit”
Fine at a dock, but we both know it doesn’t work underway unless small folks.
I’ve got 12+ years and multiple destinations beyond home on mine. Love them! Best senior boat going beyond a doubt! But if sailing with 4 is important to him, we’ll.,,
ANY of them will provide big adventures in small boats. No. 1 is see what’s available in your area. No. 2 take a boaty friend with you to help check it over. Focus on the pricey bits like sails, rigging, engine, trailer. Then check for the cost of other defects you can’t fix yourself. Everyone has opinions about boats. Important thing is to find a good one and spend time on the water with it.
I think this is great advice. Check Craigslist, FB marketplace, sailing Texas, etc and see what’s available. A mast tabernacle is mandatory. There are lots of easy raising and lowering solutions if you have a tabernacle. I’m a fan of smaller sails and prefer 2-3 small ones to one large one in a catboat. Don’t fix on a particular boat as you might find a Montgomery 17 or Sage 17 available (or a number of other good options not listed). Good luck!
Roy,
I'm a bit older than you, and I'm fortunate that my daughter provides a mooring for my boat in a cove off Narragansett Bay. I built my boat when I was 68 and have learned some lessons in the 9 years I've had her.
The first lesson is that few things can help you keep active and happy better that a good boat and a beautiful place to sail her.
The second is that I'm not as limber as I used to be and I cannot crawl in and out of tight spaces like I once did, so a fairly open cabin is good.
The third is the weight and stability of a boat are important as you get older. The weight and inertia of a boat tend to go up as the cube of its length.. Light is good but tippy can be exhausting.
When I was young I sailed a bit on a friend's Catalina 22, which was a fine boat (liked my Alberg Typhoon better), but a Catalina 22 weighs almost twice as much as a Sun Cat. If I were choosing among your candidates, I'd go with the Sun Cat for its simple rig, comfortable cabin, and ease of handling.
So, I have given some thought about most of the boats listed and feel I can extrapolate to the others.
For a newer sailor for whom comfort is important along with being a boat that is confidence inspiring, I'd say that the Potter 19 is a good place to start.
The reasons for my recommendation are below. However, the important thing to ask is how these considerations apply to the letter writer's situation and to any possible boat. Only then can the letter writer find the boat best for them.
Reasons for why the P-19 could be a good fit:
* The P-19 has a lot of space for its size. With the hard-chine hull, the interior volume is quite large for its length. The cockpit is good-sized and you feel very protected within it away from the water. The relatively large freeboard is nice for this.
* The hard-chine hull is very stable and these boats can put up with heavy weather quite well because of this. It is not a performer by any stretch. I could often out-sail and out-point my friends in their P-19 when I was in my Sparrow 16. However, I never saw them have any issues when the weather got bad.
* For a new sailor, the large number of other P-19s means there are many sailors of P-19s online of whom he could ask advice. This can be invaluable to a new sailor.
* The traditional fore/aft rig allows for rigging the main for easy reefing and the jib with a reefing furler. This is very important when the wind gets up. As someone who sails in North Idaho, I can attest that the weather can be much more surprising here than on the Salish Sea. The ability to heave-to and easily put in a reef means that a situation that could be scary just becomes annoying.
* The boat is not so large that it will be hard to rig. Of the list it will not be the easiest to rig but it is all a compromise.
* The P-19 is not so big that it can be single-handed. This may or may not be the highest priority but I'm thinking that it could be important the letter writer.
Now, what I would say are reasons why I did not recommend the other boats on the list:
* Com-Pac Legacy: These boats, although easy to rig and known for being quite confidence inspiring,
are simply too small for more than two people. I found the cabin cramped compared to my Sparrow 16.
* Com-Pac Suncat: I've sailed the waters of North Idaho and the Salish Sea in my Sparrow 16 for almost 15 years. The ability to heave-to and put in a reef is an absolute necessity. Cat boats simply cannot do this very well.
* Catalina 22: There is a reason this is one of the most popular boats around. They are a good size, handle well, and trailerable. However, for a new sailor, it likely will be too big to set up and to sail single-handed.
* Capri-18: This is one with which I am not too familiar. However if there was a boat to consider along with the P-19, I think this would be it. My gut, for what it is worth, tells me this boat might be more of performance boat than the P-19 and therefore not as forgiving to a new sailor as the P-19 would be.
Seaward Fox: This is even less familiar to me and basically the same logic likely applies to it as the Capri-18.
I hope this helps!
I agree with John Hughes’ recommendation of the Suncat for these reasons: 1. You want to trailer the boat extensively and explore different waters. This means that overall weight, having the boat sit low on the trailer, and especially ease of raising the mast will be critical to your satisfaction. I think these considerations disqualify the Seward and the Catalina. The Suncat has an ingenious system called Mastendr. The mast appears easy for one person to lift and insert in the hinged receptacle (see the Compaq web site). I would disqualify the Seward, the Catalina and maybe the Potter on this basis alone 2. Trying to keep ahead of a constantly corroding center board or swing keel made of ferrous metal (especially cast iron) is a huge maintenance nightmare. The Suncat has a stainless steel centerboard. 3. It seems to be the perfect size for you. 4. It has a chain locker forward to stow your anchor rode off the foredeck. 5. One sail to manage - easy. 6. My only reservation is no foam flotation, so watch the weather and sail conservatively (see Henry Rodriquez’s piece about how his Mac sank with the flotation removed). I believe of all your other candidates, only the Potter has that, so that might make her a good compromise choice if you can’t find a Suncat. Good luck!
O'Day Mariner. Under 22, plenty of room inside and out, much better sailboat than most of your other choices. Same design as a Rhodes 19, but with a cabin and a self bailing cockpit on the newer ones. Good luck with whatever you get.
Nothing easier than a ComPac SunCat 17!! I have sailed in company with Dick Herman’s Muddy Duck for many years....the only thing easier was my ComPac Picnic Cat 14....SunCat checks ALL the boxes...indeed it won the SCA best small boat competition a few months back!! High quality, very “Shippy Looking”....the ideal Trailer sailor some would say!!!
My preference would be for a catboat from what you say about how you would use it. Then it is what you would like better: ease of mast raising (com-pac), or unstayed rig (seaward).
Actually sailing with 4 in the cockpit in any of these, other than perhaps the Catalina, unless two are kids, is ambitious. Both the Suncat and Potter 19 meet your other requirements. The Potter cockpit is a bit short, but deep, and the Suncat cockpit is longer overall, but quite shallow, with wide seats and a wide bridge deck for safety. I have owned and thoroughly enjoyed coastal cruising in both, but the Suncat, although much, much easier to launch and rig, required just a bit of practice by this sloop sailor to adjust to the nuances of catboat sail trim. The heavy cast-iron drop keel of my Potter was clumsy to handle, required regular maintenance and its trunk was definitely in the way below. Too much "furniture" below for a 19 foot boat, in my view. But, until fully overpowered, she was solid and upright, with her initially stable hull form and that keel! Claustrophobes (like me) found the quarterberths somewhat confining. The Suncat , with two excellent berths, only needed a couple more inches of sitting headroom for me to pronounce the cabin "perfect".
San Juan 21, all the characteristics of a dinghy in a larger boat. Easy to trailer, easy to step the mast and ready at the ramp. Whatever you choose, look for good keel/centerboard, good sails, and good trailer. You can buy a fine boat for a few grand, but then have to turn around and put a few more grand towards a trailer etc.
No easier boat to trailer, set up and take down than a suncat. I’ve trailered them all over… great boats. But, you lost it at 4 adults in the cockpit. You’d be getting water up the drains… Seriously, if that us your intention, the Catalina with it’s relatively huge cockpit would shine. If only a couple, the suncat is sweet!
Roy, There are a lot of good choices and perhaps some great choices depending on what is in your area. I am assuming that you are looking at a used boat. If that is correct make sure you invite an experienced sailor (preferably without prejudices toward any particular brand) and have him or her carefully look over your prospective purchase to determine what hardware, sails, or upholstery will need updating. If stored outside, check carefully around any loose hardware or previously unfilled holes for any sponginess in the outer decking as these are great pathways for rot. Check the sails carefully for cigarette burn holes, wear, loose stitching, and mouse nests. A friend of mine let some mice winter in his mainsail and it was not a pretty site.
If there is a San Juan 21 in your area, (mentioned by Jarrett elsewhere) especially the earlier step cabin model, check it out. This same friend has the second version with a smaller cockpit and larger cabin but it is difficult for me to step from the cockpit to the foredeck. The earlier version gives you an easier intermediate step. San Juans were exceptionally well made, very stable, and pretty darn quick.
I'm 77 and have sailed small and larger boats for nearly fifty years. Were this I, the choice would be for the ComPac Suncat in a heartbeat. They have not tried to cram too much into this small sailor, it is easy to rig, easy to handle and any and all of those points secure its place in my old sailor's heart.
Damn, I hate saying "old sailor's heart", what happened to the last fifty years???
Anytime you can spend time on the water it is a damn good day! All of these boats will provide an enjoyable experience. If there is something that doesn't work for your sailing style, on any given boat, there is very likely someone, that has an ingenious fix.
I have a Catalina Capri 18 and it’s a good boat. One consideration/compromise is the wing keel. It is simpler than a swing keel and frees up space in the cabin, but probably limits sailing performance somewhat and makes trailering/launching more difficult. I keep mine in a slip which works out very well. I wouldn’t want to rig and de-rig often by myself. The way the boat sits on the trailer makes some shallow launch ramps difficult or impossible to use (I’m on the Texas Gulf Coast), but I only had to go through that once. It can fit four adults in the cockpit quite well, as long as conditions are mild and a leisurely sail is acceptable.
For the case described, I’d personally look towards a Mariner 19 with centerboard or Compac SunCat/Eclipse/Legacy.
Good luck! I hope we end up hearing what you pick.
You really should consider a Macgregor 26C. (the sailing version of the boat) I can singlehandedly raise the mast, it sits so low in on the trailer that it can launch any where, at any tide, leaving owners of other trailer sailor shaking their heads, and looking for trailer extenders. (it weighs 1650 with the ballast released) and she sails so fast upwind that other trailer sailors simply fade away in the distance as happened to me last week. We basically had to take the jib down so the other 22 footers could catch up. 5 in the cockpit is very comfortable but the boat is easy to sail by yourself.