We had a reader write suggesting we publish a side-by-side comparison of two especially popular wooden boats—the John Welsford-designed Navigator and the Francois Vivier-designed Ilur.
I built and launched my Navigator "Ellie" back in 2011 and I have sailed her thousands of miles over the last 13 years. She has appeard in several magazines, sailed the Salish-100 numerous times, and even won a trophy once. If you look closely at the second photo of the Ilur in this article, you can catch a glimpse of "Ellie" off her bow. The Ilur in this photo is "Pas Assez", built and sailed by my friend Ron Mueller. In these photos, Ron in his Ilur, and I in my Navigator, are sailing together in Fossil Bay on Sucia Island, WA.
Both of these boats are outstanding dinghy cruisers. I don't have enough first-hand experience with Ilur to tout all her virtues, but I do for Navigator.
Navigator is virtually the same size as Ilur, but is significantly lighter and has a planing hull. Navigator was originally designed as a racing sloop and later modified to also serve as a cruising dinghy. Navigator is the faster boat.
Navigator sports a self-draining anchor well that keeps the messy, stinky muddy hook out of the cockpit.
Her large watertight storage locker under the foredeck keeps sleeping bags, clothing and camping gear totally dry.
She has seating for 8 people. Her cockpit area can easily be made to comfortably sleep two. Her side decks offer space to store equipment out of the weather. Storage is also available under all the seats which also serve as flotation chambers.
She has seven different sailplans to choose from, but the gaff yawl rig is priceless IMO, for all the versatility it offers.
Ilur has an advantage when it comes to rowing. Note that "Pas Assez" has two rowing stations. Navigator was not designed with rowing in mind, although it has been done. Ilur also has a dedicated storage locker in the cockpit sole for oar storage. Her boomless rig is about as simple as rigs can get. Also, CNC kits are available for Ilur. CNC files are available for Navigator (and several other Welsford designs) on my blog.
These weight measurement must be wrong somehow. I have never seen either boat in the flesh (I would dearly love to), but I have looked quite closely at many building threads. I would suspect that they would come quite close in weight, with the Ilur being a bit heavier..
A, to the original question, and keeping in mind that I have never sailed either of them, It is my impression that the Navigator is more of a pure-bred sailor, whereas the Ilur is more of a sail and oar Boat, albeit with more emphasis on the sailing part.
I am also skeptical that the Ilur is twice as heavy as the Navigator. In my own Ilur I add 50 lbs of ballast in the bilge, and it makes her a better boat in a breeze.
As for rowing, the Ilur is a sail-and-oar boat to be sure, but she's a bear to row. She's too wide, heavy and high sided to be a fun rowboat. Maybe she's a little easier than Navigator? But, being a beefy boat is what makes the Ilur a good boat to take out in ocean water.
Possible, but I don't think so. However, this issue has also been discussed on The "Ilur in Vermont" building thread of John Hartmann on the WBF, and I think John mentioned that the weight given by Vivier on his site is according to the European regulations and is for a complete boat in sail-away conditions, including full equipment like oars, anchor, possibly also a motor, everything basically. The Navigator, on the other hand may be a "bare hull weight", I don't know. I just don't know how else you would explain the difference. They are very similar in size and shape, they have similar amounts of interior furniture, they probably use similar thickness of plywood (I admit I haven't checked this, not having access to either set of plans, but I cannot think that Ilur is planked with 18 mm plywood and the navigator with 9 mm). I just cannot see where you would put another 100 kg (225 lb) of wood in the Ilur.
I had to go to the "other side" in this poll. You might note that my little picture name Identifier IS the ILUR above, albeit Ron (builder) PO is sailing her. I chose the Navigator because I'd want to sail the Navigator but also I've followed 2 others and know the performance is better to windward and, likely better for longer raids/float trips. I first noticed in videos how comfortable Kevin Brennan is in his Nav. Then I've followed Steve Earley in Spartina - where hasn't he taken her?! And for four weeks at a time! It seems the Navigator instills a lot of confidence in her owners! The storage compartments and room under the decks looks perfect.
The Ilur has a trick of her own though. With the downhaul lead aft you have but two lines to work. Simply said, she is a delight in her simplicity. The boat is always totally open and free to roam around on. My wife loves standing next to the mast, leaning against it while she takes in everything in a 270 degree radius. This is a joy! On port the sail luff wraps the mast and heads to the gunwale - Starboard, already on the gunwale - the whole boat is open and free, always. So often I have rowed out, mast down, and rigged on the water. So I would have a hard time giving up a ten minute rig time of the simple and clean environment of the Standing Lug (Misainier) rig.
Ilur for a small boat is better. Slightly narrower beam, heavier, simpler sail plan with a little more sail sq. ft. opens up better options while underway in different weather and seaway conditions.
There are not many Ilur in the US. I managed to talk to the owner of one such curiosity at this year's Mid-Atlantic Small Craft Festival in St. Michaels Md. On paper, I did not find the Ilur to be that all alluring, but in person I can see why this small and slightly tubby craft is so well thought of by it's few owners.
While both are very traditional looking, the Navigator is a much more sleek looking vessel. It appears to be both seaworthy and fast. While it would probably weather whatever is thrown at it, the boat is more likely to outrun anything inclimate. The Ilur does not appear to be that fast. It is a much more burdensome looking craft, capable of hauling the freight and pushing through any waves or storms that happen to get in the way.
Having now seen them side by side at the dock and under sail, I understand why Roger Barnes chose the Ilur. It It not only looks painfully traditional, but like the boats it's design is based upon, it will very likely bring it's crew home no matter how bad the weather gets. It might be a wet and scary ride, but it will return them to port in good order, or at least that is how it looks.
If I had to build one or the other, I would choose the Ilur, but I don't think I would go boomless like Avel Dro.
I chose an Ilur for my own boat, mainly on a single criteria: simplicity. In that regard Ilur wins. If I chose for looks, I'd go for Navigator.
Mm, I should weigh my boat. I don't think she's 660 lbs. Maybe that's designed displacement? I do add 50 lbs of ballast (lead shot in bags) in the bilges, and it makes a big difference.
Hello Peter, I too have bags of lead, 3 bags of 18lbs. I've also mirrored RogerB with a battery box in the same place adding another 35lbs - she settles down nicely in a chop and points a bit higher. Which ILUR is yours? what waters do you sail? I'd like to think if anything has been publicized about an ILUR, I've seen it... I may have even commented on yours and forgotten about it.?
I see it as a choice of performance versus ease of use.
The Ilur’s simple rig, spacious cockpit, and rowing accommodations make it the better choice for regular day-or-two trips to my local lakes. It’s more approachable to someone new to sailing to operate a boat with one sail, so when I’m lucky enough to take a friend out who isn’t an experienced sailor, they’ll have less apprehension about taking the helm. The seating is more approachable, being less prescriptive. One sail launches quickly and doesn’t make a mess of lines. The lapstrake hull will probably get more compliments. With rowing seating standard, I wouldn’t have to put in a motor and register it, which I have never done. I’m lucky to have a handful of small boats, but I’m not lucky enough to have multiples of equipment, so from sails to whistles much of my gear gets packed for each trip to water. The Ilur is a good boat to have in a quiver and toss dry bags in when you take it out.
With the restrictive design of the Navigator comes better performance, making it the right boat for a solo adventure. Decks encroach on cockpit space, but keep water out. Three sails complicate launching and use but the headsail will contribute to performance to weather and the mizzen will put a pause on things long enough to stay out of some trouble. Unless you’re going to modify the cockpit maybe with a daggerboard to clear up a rowing thwart, it needs a motor, but a motor isn’t a bad choice for adventurous use. The motor does add a layer of maintenance that makes the Navigator the wrong boat to add to a quiver. It’s the right boat if you have one for doing everything that keeps all the gear in it in the proper place. If I wanted a single, versatile boat to also test the conditions and distances I could travel solo, I would choose the Navigator.
For me the ease of use of the Ilur barely outweighs the performance of the Navigator. If I was going to rent a boat for two weeks over summer it would be the Navigator, but the boat that I would keep at home for regular use is the Ilur.
I’ve been around boats for about 63 years. My dad owned a commercial fishing boat operated by others . Later I when I was younger I earned 18 months official sea-time on ocean going tugs working the BC coast from the River to Kitimat. I also owned two large heavier displacement boats (58’ & 41’) at the coast . Many years ago spent 7 weeks canoeing the South Nahanni River in the Northwest Territories, Canada in large cedar strip canoes. Lots of time on the water. I’ve been involved in a couple of very detailed small boat design exercises in the past 15 years. Hope that helps.
I am sorry, I really did not mean to offend you by my question. I just wanted to know whether you had any actual practical experience with either of these boats. I find both of them very attractive and they are on my short list of possible boats to build as my "Old Codger Boat". I have therefore tried to read up and look up as much as I could about them. As I mentioned before, I have unfortunately never had the opportunity to personally see, and even less sail either boat.
Hard choice. Navigator planes while Ilur doesn't. Ilur is faster to launch, better to row and easier to camp with. Navigator is probably easier to right and empty if you capsize.
Having crossed tacks with both, but never sailed either, I'd go for the Ilur, but that may just be due to the skill of the owner of the Ilur. The Navigator might do better off shore in a serious blow, with more freeboard and decks, but I still choose the Ilur, and a sharp weather eye.
"skill of the owner ...". Yes, I am a bit leery of the Ilur simply because Roger Barnes makes everything on water look easy. Sure, he can sail that rig fast and he can scull his way upriver. But could I? I'm not so sure on that.
As with all boats, particularly small ones, it always comes down to taste given a more or less equal sea keeping ability. The yawl rig and modest "side decks" in my view would make it easier to control the "Navigator" in a hard chance. In addition, even an inch bigger here and there adds up to utility rather quickly.
Devil's choice, the only thing favoring the Navigator is I'm more familiar with the construction method, in all honesty at 81 I'm not likely (like in forever) to build either but they are both lovely competent designs.
Rigwise the balanced lug is so simple but versatile and reasonably powerful.
In terms of construction I'd suggest Ilur has the edge: you can get a CNC cut kit, with not only all planks cut for you, but the building frame as well. This saves a lot of hours! I don't think Navigator has such an option.
I built and launched my Navigator "Ellie" back in 2011 and I have sailed her thousands of miles over the last 13 years. She has appeard in several magazines, sailed the Salish-100 numerous times, and even won a trophy once. If you look closely at the second photo of the Ilur in this article, you can catch a glimpse of "Ellie" off her bow. The Ilur in this photo is "Pas Assez", built and sailed by my friend Ron Mueller. In these photos, Ron in his Ilur, and I in my Navigator, are sailing together in Fossil Bay on Sucia Island, WA.
Both of these boats are outstanding dinghy cruisers. I don't have enough first-hand experience with Ilur to tout all her virtues, but I do for Navigator.
Navigator is virtually the same size as Ilur, but is significantly lighter and has a planing hull. Navigator was originally designed as a racing sloop and later modified to also serve as a cruising dinghy. Navigator is the faster boat.
Navigator sports a self-draining anchor well that keeps the messy, stinky muddy hook out of the cockpit.
Her large watertight storage locker under the foredeck keeps sleeping bags, clothing and camping gear totally dry.
She has seating for 8 people. Her cockpit area can easily be made to comfortably sleep two. Her side decks offer space to store equipment out of the weather. Storage is also available under all the seats which also serve as flotation chambers.
She has seven different sailplans to choose from, but the gaff yawl rig is priceless IMO, for all the versatility it offers.
Ilur has an advantage when it comes to rowing. Note that "Pas Assez" has two rowing stations. Navigator was not designed with rowing in mind, although it has been done. Ilur also has a dedicated storage locker in the cockpit sole for oar storage. Her boomless rig is about as simple as rigs can get. Also, CNC kits are available for Ilur. CNC files are available for Navigator (and several other Welsford designs) on my blog.
These weight measurement must be wrong somehow. I have never seen either boat in the flesh (I would dearly love to), but I have looked quite closely at many building threads. I would suspect that they would come quite close in weight, with the Ilur being a bit heavier..
A, to the original question, and keeping in mind that I have never sailed either of them, It is my impression that the Navigator is more of a pure-bred sailor, whereas the Ilur is more of a sail and oar Boat, albeit with more emphasis on the sailing part.
I would be very happy to take either one.
Viktor
I am also skeptical that the Ilur is twice as heavy as the Navigator. In my own Ilur I add 50 lbs of ballast in the bilge, and it makes her a better boat in a breeze.
As for rowing, the Ilur is a sail-and-oar boat to be sure, but she's a bear to row. She's too wide, heavy and high sided to be a fun rowboat. Maybe she's a little easier than Navigator? But, being a beefy boat is what makes the Ilur a good boat to take out in ocean water.
The weight given for the Ilur may include ballast.
Possible, but I don't think so. However, this issue has also been discussed on The "Ilur in Vermont" building thread of John Hartmann on the WBF, and I think John mentioned that the weight given by Vivier on his site is according to the European regulations and is for a complete boat in sail-away conditions, including full equipment like oars, anchor, possibly also a motor, everything basically. The Navigator, on the other hand may be a "bare hull weight", I don't know. I just don't know how else you would explain the difference. They are very similar in size and shape, they have similar amounts of interior furniture, they probably use similar thickness of plywood (I admit I haven't checked this, not having access to either set of plans, but I cannot think that Ilur is planked with 18 mm plywood and the navigator with 9 mm). I just cannot see where you would put another 100 kg (225 lb) of wood in the Ilur.
I had to go to the "other side" in this poll. You might note that my little picture name Identifier IS the ILUR above, albeit Ron (builder) PO is sailing her. I chose the Navigator because I'd want to sail the Navigator but also I've followed 2 others and know the performance is better to windward and, likely better for longer raids/float trips. I first noticed in videos how comfortable Kevin Brennan is in his Nav. Then I've followed Steve Earley in Spartina - where hasn't he taken her?! And for four weeks at a time! It seems the Navigator instills a lot of confidence in her owners! The storage compartments and room under the decks looks perfect.
The Ilur has a trick of her own though. With the downhaul lead aft you have but two lines to work. Simply said, she is a delight in her simplicity. The boat is always totally open and free to roam around on. My wife loves standing next to the mast, leaning against it while she takes in everything in a 270 degree radius. This is a joy! On port the sail luff wraps the mast and heads to the gunwale - Starboard, already on the gunwale - the whole boat is open and free, always. So often I have rowed out, mast down, and rigged on the water. So I would have a hard time giving up a ten minute rig time of the simple and clean environment of the Standing Lug (Misainier) rig.
Ilur for a small boat is better. Slightly narrower beam, heavier, simpler sail plan with a little more sail sq. ft. opens up better options while underway in different weather and seaway conditions.
Are you speaking from experience?
There are not many Ilur in the US. I managed to talk to the owner of one such curiosity at this year's Mid-Atlantic Small Craft Festival in St. Michaels Md. On paper, I did not find the Ilur to be that all alluring, but in person I can see why this small and slightly tubby craft is so well thought of by it's few owners.
While both are very traditional looking, the Navigator is a much more sleek looking vessel. It appears to be both seaworthy and fast. While it would probably weather whatever is thrown at it, the boat is more likely to outrun anything inclimate. The Ilur does not appear to be that fast. It is a much more burdensome looking craft, capable of hauling the freight and pushing through any waves or storms that happen to get in the way.
Having now seen them side by side at the dock and under sail, I understand why Roger Barnes chose the Ilur. It It not only looks painfully traditional, but like the boats it's design is based upon, it will very likely bring it's crew home no matter how bad the weather gets. It might be a wet and scary ride, but it will return them to port in good order, or at least that is how it looks.
If I had to build one or the other, I would choose the Ilur, but I don't think I would go boomless like Avel Dro.
I chose an Ilur for my own boat, mainly on a single criteria: simplicity. In that regard Ilur wins. If I chose for looks, I'd go for Navigator.
Mm, I should weigh my boat. I don't think she's 660 lbs. Maybe that's designed displacement? I do add 50 lbs of ballast (lead shot in bags) in the bilges, and it makes a big difference.
Hello Peter, I too have bags of lead, 3 bags of 18lbs. I've also mirrored RogerB with a battery box in the same place adding another 35lbs - she settles down nicely in a chop and points a bit higher. Which ILUR is yours? what waters do you sail? I'd like to think if anything has been publicized about an ILUR, I've seen it... I may have even commented on yours and forgotten about it.?
I see it as a choice of performance versus ease of use.
The Ilur’s simple rig, spacious cockpit, and rowing accommodations make it the better choice for regular day-or-two trips to my local lakes. It’s more approachable to someone new to sailing to operate a boat with one sail, so when I’m lucky enough to take a friend out who isn’t an experienced sailor, they’ll have less apprehension about taking the helm. The seating is more approachable, being less prescriptive. One sail launches quickly and doesn’t make a mess of lines. The lapstrake hull will probably get more compliments. With rowing seating standard, I wouldn’t have to put in a motor and register it, which I have never done. I’m lucky to have a handful of small boats, but I’m not lucky enough to have multiples of equipment, so from sails to whistles much of my gear gets packed for each trip to water. The Ilur is a good boat to have in a quiver and toss dry bags in when you take it out.
With the restrictive design of the Navigator comes better performance, making it the right boat for a solo adventure. Decks encroach on cockpit space, but keep water out. Three sails complicate launching and use but the headsail will contribute to performance to weather and the mizzen will put a pause on things long enough to stay out of some trouble. Unless you’re going to modify the cockpit maybe with a daggerboard to clear up a rowing thwart, it needs a motor, but a motor isn’t a bad choice for adventurous use. The motor does add a layer of maintenance that makes the Navigator the wrong boat to add to a quiver. It’s the right boat if you have one for doing everything that keeps all the gear in it in the proper place. If I wanted a single, versatile boat to also test the conditions and distances I could travel solo, I would choose the Navigator.
For me the ease of use of the Ilur barely outweighs the performance of the Navigator. If I was going to rent a boat for two weeks over summer it would be the Navigator, but the boat that I would keep at home for regular use is the Ilur.
I'd take an Ilur. She's very handsome and you have to have a boat that makes you look over your shoulder at her while you're walking on the beach.
I’ve been around boats for about 63 years. My dad owned a commercial fishing boat operated by others . Later I when I was younger I earned 18 months official sea-time on ocean going tugs working the BC coast from the River to Kitimat. I also owned two large heavier displacement boats (58’ & 41’) at the coast . Many years ago spent 7 weeks canoeing the South Nahanni River in the Northwest Territories, Canada in large cedar strip canoes. Lots of time on the water. I’ve been involved in a couple of very detailed small boat design exercises in the past 15 years. Hope that helps.
I am sorry, I really did not mean to offend you by my question. I just wanted to know whether you had any actual practical experience with either of these boats. I find both of them very attractive and they are on my short list of possible boats to build as my "Old Codger Boat". I have therefore tried to read up and look up as much as I could about them. As I mentioned before, I have unfortunately never had the opportunity to personally see, and even less sail either boat.
That was the reason for my question.
Best regards,
Viktor
No worries. Thx.
Hard choice. Navigator planes while Ilur doesn't. Ilur is faster to launch, better to row and easier to camp with. Navigator is probably easier to right and empty if you capsize.
Having crossed tacks with both, but never sailed either, I'd go for the Ilur, but that may just be due to the skill of the owner of the Ilur. The Navigator might do better off shore in a serious blow, with more freeboard and decks, but I still choose the Ilur, and a sharp weather eye.
"skill of the owner ...". Yes, I am a bit leery of the Ilur simply because Roger Barnes makes everything on water look easy. Sure, he can sail that rig fast and he can scull his way upriver. But could I? I'm not so sure on that.
I never realized the Illur is twice the weight of the Navigator. I assume that's not the 'clinker' version??
As with all boats, particularly small ones, it always comes down to taste given a more or less equal sea keeping ability. The yawl rig and modest "side decks" in my view would make it easier to control the "Navigator" in a hard chance. In addition, even an inch bigger here and there adds up to utility rather quickly.
Devil's choice, the only thing favoring the Navigator is I'm more familiar with the construction method, in all honesty at 81 I'm not likely (like in forever) to build either but they are both lovely competent designs.
Rigwise the balanced lug is so simple but versatile and reasonably powerful.
In terms of construction I'd suggest Ilur has the edge: you can get a CNC cut kit, with not only all planks cut for you, but the building frame as well. This saves a lot of hours! I don't think Navigator has such an option.