I use the KISS system on my oar and sail Harrier. A nice big bolt with big washers and a Nylock nut between two cheek pieces. It is carefully adjusted to be tight enough to hold the blade down when sailing yet kick up when beaching. No string, no cleats. You do have to get your hand wet to push it down into place after it kicks up, or have a forked stick, something I don't mind.
Made me look...It's the same as the kick-up rudder on the Sage 17, right? Raising the tiller lifts the rudder blade up via a linkage. Are there any plans/drawings?
Are you referring to the one J.O. Woodworks used to make for the Sage boats? I took the photos of that design at the Pocket Yacht Palooza in Port Townsend several years ago.
As I understand the operating principle, the bungee along the leading edge of the rudder keeps it down or up, depending on how the shaft between the plates is positioned. The shaft attaches to the top of the rudder and the underside of the tiller and by lifting the tiller in a quick motion, the rudder blade pivots and flips up or down...
I explored having one made for my Venture 21. It was gonna be more than I could afford or justify at the time (but way less than what Rudder Craft lists their gas strut supported design for). I am guessing it would be a super custom job at this time as they are no longer presented on his website...but maybe someone has plans that one could adapt.
Yes, it’s the same. I’ve had it apart to revarnish the rudder and I’m still mystified how it works. I only know that it works perfectly every time! Jerry is a genius.
Thanks for the photos, Eddie. They really help to see how it works. And thanks for the verification, Rusty. It's a very clever design and a shame that there's not more info on it or plans...but would make a neat winter project to try to replicate.
I went back to my email with John Owens about my project and re-found a link for a company in Europe who makes rudders for small craft like Optimists that kick-up using that mechanism. I wonder if Jerry Mongomery got the idea from them?
Very cool design, and I'm still amazed at how well it works. The YT video you found really shows how it all comes together. The version from Dotan has some nice features for adjusting the rudder angle and shock absorption (?).
So true. I wanted to be able to stand on the cockpit seats amd work the tiller. That would likely have moved the blade up as it began the 'flip-up' motion and put it in a less effective position.
It was fun revisiting the 2016 email chain with John Owens. He spent a great deal of time gathering info to see what might work for my V21. It appears he has since sold his rudder/tiller operation to another fellow, but I found no mention of them on that website...
Yup, it looks like John has sold that part of his J O Woodworks business to Bobby Chilek. If anyone out there is looking, here's the contact info that I found: Website – bobbysboatworks.com. Email – bobbysboatworks@yahoo.com.
I like the single raising line on my Cruising Scot. Let it loose and down she goes. A large magnesium and a large zinc adds weight and serves me in salt or fresh water. Although the risk is minimal on a Scot. My dilemma is adding a wind vane on my tilt up rudder. Enjoy!
We use control lines for up and down on our Penobscot 14. It is underslung so it stays down for the most part once fully extended, and just enough nut tension to help it stay there. Similar on our ODay Day Sailer, it has a thumbnut to keep it down and a control line to hold it up. One thing we like is to have a centerboard/dagger deeper than the rudder, so that the board acts as a depth finder. If we feel it drag, we know it's time to tend to the rudder.
As for a weighted rudder or centerboard, we don't. But if we did, we'd cast fishing weights into epoxy vs melting and pouring lead.
I have been struggling to find a solution that allows me to raise and lower the rudder blade from the center of our Swampscott dory. Ben Fullers option is brilliantly simple, but in my boat I have to crawl aft around the mizzen mast towards a narrowing stern. I have not fallen out, but it’s not clear how I’ve avoided a dunking.
I’m expecting a couple of cam cleats to arrive in the mail today, that feature a roller fairlead from underneath. I will mount these on my dory’s rudder yoke and hope that, next time I’m getting tossed around as I leave or return to shore, that I can lower or raise the rudder blade from the comfortable center of the boat. The two control lines are color coded, green for lower the rudder blade and start sailing, red for, well, you guessed it.
Unbalanced rudder shown. The more the rudder blade is aft of the pintel pins axis, the more unbalanced the rudder is, which results in more force required at the tiller for steering.
The more of the rudder blade is forward of the pivot line, the easier the steering will be, until you reach a point that the water flow will pull the tiller out of your hand.
About 15 years ago, I cut away some wood on my Potter 19 rudder joint to allow the rudder blade to be about 2" forward the pivot line and it made the tiller steering greatly improved.
I use the KISS system on my oar and sail Harrier. A nice big bolt with big washers and a Nylock nut between two cheek pieces. It is carefully adjusted to be tight enough to hold the blade down when sailing yet kick up when beaching. No string, no cleats. You do have to get your hand wet to push it down into place after it kicks up, or have a forked stick, something I don't mind.
Surprised you forgot to include the most brilliant rudder of all, from the finest small sailboat ever designed, Jerry’s Montgomery 15!
Made me look...It's the same as the kick-up rudder on the Sage 17, right? Raising the tiller lifts the rudder blade up via a linkage. Are there any plans/drawings?
No plans I’m aware of.
Are you referring to the one J.O. Woodworks used to make for the Sage boats? I took the photos of that design at the Pocket Yacht Palooza in Port Townsend several years ago.
https://goo.gl/photos/ttvihZ2zxm5xsz58A
As I understand the operating principle, the bungee along the leading edge of the rudder keeps it down or up, depending on how the shaft between the plates is positioned. The shaft attaches to the top of the rudder and the underside of the tiller and by lifting the tiller in a quick motion, the rudder blade pivots and flips up or down...
I explored having one made for my Venture 21. It was gonna be more than I could afford or justify at the time (but way less than what Rudder Craft lists their gas strut supported design for). I am guessing it would be a super custom job at this time as they are no longer presented on his website...but maybe someone has plans that one could adapt.
Yes, it’s the same. I’ve had it apart to revarnish the rudder and I’m still mystified how it works. I only know that it works perfectly every time! Jerry is a genius.
Thanks for the photos, Eddie. They really help to see how it works. And thanks for the verification, Rusty. It's a very clever design and a shame that there's not more info on it or plans...but would make a neat winter project to try to replicate.
I went back to my email with John Owens about my project and re-found a link for a company in Europe who makes rudders for small craft like Optimists that kick-up using that mechanism. I wonder if Jerry Mongomery got the idea from them?
http://optimist.dotan.com/article/
A search on YouTube delivered this one, too:
https://youtu.be/5Isw5B2ezew?si=Ll_SysEMbvMrYL70
Very cool design, and I'm still amazed at how well it works. The YT video you found really shows how it all comes together. The version from Dotan has some nice features for adjusting the rudder angle and shock absorption (?).
So true. I wanted to be able to stand on the cockpit seats amd work the tiller. That would likely have moved the blade up as it began the 'flip-up' motion and put it in a less effective position.
It was fun revisiting the 2016 email chain with John Owens. He spent a great deal of time gathering info to see what might work for my V21. It appears he has since sold his rudder/tiller operation to another fellow, but I found no mention of them on that website...
Yup, it looks like John has sold that part of his J O Woodworks business to Bobby Chilek. If anyone out there is looking, here's the contact info that I found: Website – bobbysboatworks.com. Email – bobbysboatworks@yahoo.com.
I like the single raising line on my Cruising Scot. Let it loose and down she goes. A large magnesium and a large zinc adds weight and serves me in salt or fresh water. Although the risk is minimal on a Scot. My dilemma is adding a wind vane on my tilt up rudder. Enjoy!
We use control lines for up and down on our Penobscot 14. It is underslung so it stays down for the most part once fully extended, and just enough nut tension to help it stay there. Similar on our ODay Day Sailer, it has a thumbnut to keep it down and a control line to hold it up. One thing we like is to have a centerboard/dagger deeper than the rudder, so that the board acts as a depth finder. If we feel it drag, we know it's time to tend to the rudder.
As for a weighted rudder or centerboard, we don't. But if we did, we'd cast fishing weights into epoxy vs melting and pouring lead.
I have been struggling to find a solution that allows me to raise and lower the rudder blade from the center of our Swampscott dory. Ben Fullers option is brilliantly simple, but in my boat I have to crawl aft around the mizzen mast towards a narrowing stern. I have not fallen out, but it’s not clear how I’ve avoided a dunking.
I’m expecting a couple of cam cleats to arrive in the mail today, that feature a roller fairlead from underneath. I will mount these on my dory’s rudder yoke and hope that, next time I’m getting tossed around as I leave or return to shore, that I can lower or raise the rudder blade from the comfortable center of the boat. The two control lines are color coded, green for lower the rudder blade and start sailing, red for, well, you guessed it.
Unbalanced rudder shown. The more the rudder blade is aft of the pintel pins axis, the more unbalanced the rudder is, which results in more force required at the tiller for steering.
The more of the rudder blade is forward of the pivot line, the easier the steering will be, until you reach a point that the water flow will pull the tiller out of your hand.
About 15 years ago, I cut away some wood on my Potter 19 rudder joint to allow the rudder blade to be about 2" forward the pivot line and it made the tiller steering greatly improved.